Why Is There Suffering?

I went to an Christian discussion session, talking about the reason that there is suffering in the world. The simply answer, from a Christian point of view, is that we are not in Heaven, and hence there is suffering. Whilst this argument makes sense, if you believe in Heaven, it doesn't help much if you don't. I think a lot of suffering occurs due to human selfishness, and the inability of people to recognise that it can be a win-win situation, rather than always win-lose, as we are taught from childhood.

The other question, which I thought was more interesting, was "what would be the worst things that could happen to you?"

A list that I thought of would be something like the following:
a) Loss of a loved one
b) Loss of freedom
c) Loss of hope
d) Some form of abuse, whether it be mental or physical
e) Loss of trust

Thinking about it further, I'm lucky to have not experienced any of the above to a great extent. And, as someone suggested to me that night, not having your mettle tested could mean that you do not feel that there is a need to rely of other people, or God, for that matter. I am of the firm belief that you are able to change the situation around you by the way you approach the situation (Yui, that "Fish" book was cool! I'll return it soon). Could this belief only work in events that are of less significance?

On another note, a friend of my brother-in-law was also in attendance. He had a good theory about why people have problems becoming Christian. Essentially, we all have a system of values and experiences (your character, as it were) that we put our faith in. We use this system to produce a certain set of results that we are happy with. The problem is that we need to put this system away, and take on a whole new system of values (as described in the Bible) to live our lives. And that's where it's tough, because no one wants to use an untested system, one that they have not had any experience in.

It's this leap of faith that takes the longest time, and one that, at this point in time, I am unable or unwilling to make.

Damn! fourteen cheap calls already:

I must say, I generally live by the motto "God helps those who help themselves" :) However, the thought that if you believe in him, God will protect you in life and death against any evil is quite a nice one too (Romans 8). But like you said, until you can take that leap of faith, it's just a nice thought, and not a belief I could live by either.
milli - 27 June '04 - 07:26

is it that you have have a different system of values - as in what u think is good and bad is prob gonna be similar to Christians?? - but maybe it'd be your motivation for doing things that would be different if you were Christian??
mushiejc (link) - 27 June '04 - 15:23

If God created the world, then by definition he created suffering (unless you subscribe to the argument that Satan had something to do with this, in which case, God is not omnipotent or all-powerful).

If that's the case, then God is one vengeful, sadistic bastard. Having said that, I now face the prospect of going to hell.

At least I'll get to meet Ghandi there.
-Stephen- (email) (link) - 27 June '04 - 19:19

-lol- just found this quote on bash, thought it was appropriate for topic of conversation:

Personally its not God I dislike, its his fan club I cant stand.
reenie (email) - 28 June '04 - 08:19

Yes, mushiejc, as I was told the other night, if you were Christian everything is done for the glory of God, rather than yourself.

Stepehen, I think the answer to that would be Man chose to make the world NOT heaven, and that is why there is suffering.
JookBoy (email) (link) - 28 June '04 - 13:22

i think putting faith in any system of values rather than my own is in effect saying that i don't believe in myself and i don't believe in my power to make judgements for myself, which scares me.

having said that, IMHO western society is fairly "Christian" anyway (follow Christian holidays, laws based around Christian ideals, large surrounding population of Christians, open advertising by Christians, ...) so our values have already shaped themself to be fairly close to Christian ones (with completely different motivation for doing things I admit)
al - 29 June '04 - 21:54

You're right al, we live by the Christian moral values. And truth be told, I think those values are great. Do they compare quite differently to the values you see in China?
JookBoy (link) - 30 June '04 - 17:25

"Do they compare quite differently to the values you see in China? "

Motto: If you can sell it for $2. I can sell it for $1.50
Peedz - 03 July '04 - 20:46

Normally very different... but I noticed apparently Chinese law does legalise one thing that many of us are doing "not so legally" in Australia : apparently it is OK to copy software for "testing" purposes here...
al - 04 July '04 - 21:50

Hi Kev.. just came across your blog through a friend. Haven't been keeping up with my blog rolling and must've missed yours! :) And yes you do know me, but I haven't seen you in a while.

Anyway, interesting post. I liked the way the friend of your brother-in-law put it, the theory on why people have a problem accepting christianity. I'm interested to know which place/church/organisation you went to for this Christian discussion session.

But yeh, keeping in line with what your friend said, I reckon it basically comes to this with most people: You want to be in control of your own life, make your own decisions and live whichever way you please.. rather than submit to someone else's (ie God's) authority over your life. I guess, I believe thats the heart of the problem (what the bible defines as sin), and contributes to a lot of the reason why there is suffering in the world.

Anyways, yeh, I think its cool you're willing to think about things like this, and even attend discussion sessions to investigate this stuff.
Kazzart (link) - 08 July '04 - 11:53

Hi Kazzart,

I went to my sister's church, I think it's called CPC, the one on Crown St in Surry Hills.
She's been going there since I was about 13.
The speaker for the night was a great guy, James Fong. Worth going just for his presentation!
JookBoy (link) - 10 July '04 - 15:13

Ahh yep, I know ppl from there.. think I've been there before too. And James Fong is an awesome speaker! I've heard him speak a few times before.. such a crack up! Heheh. Did he tell his "most embarrassing moment" story? Man.. so funny.
Kazzart (link) - 11 July '04 - 07:27

hehe i think i heard that bloke speak too ... he was great! was wondering - if ur values systems are all pretty similar to Chrisitian morals, than what would the so called "leap of faith" involve?
Dessy - 12 July '04 - 11:11

So what you're trying to say is that you're a Quasi-Christian Kev? :)

To quote Shakespeare: "A rose by any other name doth smell as sweet"

Couldn't the same be said about people living with Christian virtues and morals but not being Christian?

It's like people who live in de facto relationships but who choose not to get married. Some people just want to do it their way.
ricegrains (link) - 12 August '04 - 07:43